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Part 4. Steve Thomas Deposition

Q. Do you know whether Chris Wolf's DNA was ever tested?
A. I have no personal knowledge of that.
Q. Was Chris Wolf one of the 73 individuals, that number that you referenced with respect to your comments about 73 suspects having their handwriting analyzed, is he one of the 73?
A. I don't know.
Q. Well, how did you come up with the number 73?
A. From Detective Trujillo's briefing to other detectives about CBI's examinations.
Q. Do you know whether -- do you know as a fact firsthand or from what you've heard whether Chris Wolf's handwriting was ever analyzed by the Boulder Police Department?
A. As I said previously, I don't know the details of Detective Weinheimer's subsequent investigation of Chris Wolf.
Q. Is the answer no, you don't know?
A. The answer to what?
Q. To my question.
A. What is the question, sir?
Q. Listen carefully. From -- my question was, do you know as a fact, firsthand or from what you heard, whether Chris Wolf's handwriting was ever analyzed by the Boulder Police Department, yes or no?
A. I don't know that.
Q. Do you know?
A. I don't know that.
Q. Okay. Do you know whether Mr. Wolf, I guess you can tell me this is pretty easy, maybe you'll understand this one. Clearly you don't know whether he was -- his handwriting eliminated him as the author of the note, do you?
A. As I have said, I don't know the details of Detective Weinheimer's investigation but took Detective Weinheimer's statement that Chris Wolf was cleared at face value.
Q. Knowing what you know about how the Boulder Police Department, what would one use to clear someone, what could possibly clear an individual here? One would be a solid alibi, right?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. Verified, right?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. What else?
A. Handwriting, certainly.
Q. Handwriting. That eliminated John Ramsey as the author of the ransom note?
A. Is that a question?
Q. Yes.
A. What is your question?
Q. You said handwriting and I said handwriting, that eliminated John Ramsey as the author of the ransom note, true?
A. That's my understanding.
Q. All right. What else besides alibi and handwriting?
A. I don't know what was being done with it on the back end, but certainly a polygraph examination.
Q. So you would eliminate based solely on a polygraph?
A. No.
Q. All right. You would take it into consideration?
MR. DIAMOND: You have to answer audibly.
A. We would take our polygraph examinations into consideration, yes, sir.
Q. (BY MR. WOOD) All of your polygraph examinations were done by the FBI, weren't they?
A. I believe so.
Q. You didn't have anybody on the Boulder Police Department that was trained in polygraph examinations, did you?
A. I don't know if anybody received polygraph training but we did not have an in-house polygrapher.
Q. Okay. So we've got alibi, handwriting, polygraph, what else?
MR. DIAMOND: Polygraph coupled with other things he said.
Q. (BY MR. WOOD) Well, yeah, polygraph alone would not be sufficient to clear someone, would it?
A. Not necessarily, no.
Q. Right. So now what else could be utilized, as you understood this investigation, to clear a suspect?
A. Witnesses.
Q. Witnesses as to alibi?
A. Yes, certainly that.
Q. Witnesses as to what else?
A. Well, I think you're hitting the highlights. Beyond that, I don't know how specifically those determinations beyond that, the obvious, people were being cleared.
Q. You're familiar with the use of the term forensics, aren't you?
A. I am.
Q. What would be forensic evidence that could clear someone in the JonBenet Ramsey investigation?
A. Handwriting.
Q. Anything else?
MR. DIAMOND: You're saying standing by itself?
Q. (BY MR. WOOD) Standing by itself, if I were going to say, well, John Doe has been eliminated as a suspect in the JonBenet Ramsey investigation based on forensic evidence, what is the only forensic evidence that you were aware of that could have itself eliminated someone from being involved?
A. Besides the handwriting?
Q. I want the answer. If it's handwriting, if there was anything else, let me know that.
A. Well, I know the big controversy -- thank you very much -- was whether or not DNA was clearing people in this case.
Q. And ultimately it was not, was it?
A. I don't know. I certainly don't hold myself out as a DNA expert.
Q. No, but I mean, you knew the approach the investigation was taking from the time of your involvement through August of '98 and the DNA either quite simply either eliminated everybody or it eliminated nobody if it wasn't a match, true?
A. There was a huge controversy about the DNA.
Q. So it was not in and of itself viewed as a forensic piece of evidence that eliminated anyone, was it?
A. Correct.
Q. Other than handwriting, what else was the basis for a forensic evidence that would eliminate someone as a suspect in the Ramsey case?
A. May I have just a moment?
Q. Sure. (Discussion off the record between the deponent and Mr. Diamond.)
A. Mr. Wood, unless I'm missing something entirely obvious, no, the handwriting, the ransom note, et cetera, was the sort of cornerstone piece of evidence in this case and I think that's how most people were being cleared.
Q. (BY MR. WOOD) Well, when you say most people were being cleared, had the Boulder Police Department concluded that the murderer and the author of the note were one and the same, that is to say, had the Boulder Police Department concluded that there could not have been involvement by more than one person?
A. I think there was some division on that point.
Q. Because actually the handwriting, only if eliminated under analysis, only really eliminates an individual as the author of the note but does not in and of itself eliminate the person from involvement in the crime, true?
A. I think the collective consensus was that certainly it wasn't a leap the author of the note was involved in the crime.
Q. I don't think that would be a leap. But the question is elimination as the author of the note did not in and of itself eliminate one from involvement in the crime, true?
A. By way of a conspiracy that you're suggesting that --
Q. I'm just suggesting straight up, sir, handwriting analysis that eliminates you as the author of the note does not in and of itself eliminate you from involvement in the crime, true?
A. One could argue that, yes, sir.
Q. Fiber evidence was not a forensic test that was used to eliminate in and of itself, was it?
A. As far as elimination of suspects, I don't have firsthand knowledge of the fiber evidence testing and that wasn't an assignment I had in this case. But no, I don't believe that fiber evidence in and of itself was any sort of eliminator.
Q. Do you know whether any fiber tests were ever conducted on non-testimonial evidence voluntarily provided by Chris Wolf, any fibers ever tested to your knowledge?
A. I got the impression that it was.
Q. Where did you get that impression?
A. From Jackie Dilson after she turned over to Investigator Ainsworth and/or Smit in June of '97 what she told me were, I think, bed linens, a leather jacket, a diary, maybe underwear, and she told me that she had been told they were going to submit that for testing.
Q. Do you know whether it was tested?
A. I do not.
Q. Do you -- you certainly have no idea of what any of the results would have been if tested, true?
A. Correct.
Q. Do you know how many handwriting exemplars Mr. Wolf gave?
A. No, as I said before I don't know the breadth or depth or extent of Mr. -- Detective Weinheimer's investigation into Mr. Wolf.
Q. What was the standard practice in terms of when you were obtaining handwriting exemplars from suspects for analysis, how many exemplars were standardly obtained?
A. It's my recollection that initially, and I can only speak to what myself and Gosage were doing routinely, we were asking for the voluntary completion of what is known as a London letter, as well as a second sheet including words or phrases from the ransom note and that initial screen was what I'm assuming after booked into evidence was eventually going to CBI for analysis to see if there was any reason to further investigate an individual.
Q. Your understanding is there were 73 suspects whose handwriting was analyzed?
A. At the time of the VIP presentation, at the time I left, yes -- 1
Q. June of 1998?
A. -- that was the number.
Q. And of those 73, how many of those individuals were eliminated as the author of the note based on the handwriting analysis itself?
A. And I'm not a handwriting expert, but under entire elimination, I don't know.
Q. I don't want to know about entire elimination unless you're using that in a phrase, maybe you are. I want to -- you've got 73 people whose handwriting was tested, and you've either got a result from CBI that says we've got a match, right, or you've got a result from CBI that says basically inconclusive or you've got a result from CBI that says elimination, right?
A. No, I don't think it's that simple.
Q. Well, I'm not trying to make it more complicated than that. But maybe you know more about it and if you do, then, that would be helpful for me to learn. I want to know, though, from the bottom line that we can agree that it is simple when it comes to 2 the question of elimination, that's simple because that's one of the categories, elimination --
A. Right.
Q. -- right?
A. Right.
Q. And how many of the 73 were eliminated as the author of the note based on the handwriting examples or exemplars?
A. I don't know.
Q. Not many, true?
A. I know that the majority fell into the no evidence to indicate category.
Q. But they couldn't go to elimination, could they?
A. Again, I don't know.
Q. Didn't you talk with the handwriting expert, sir?
A. Are we talking about the CBI expert?
Q. Any of them. There were four with respect to Patsy Ramsey, weren't there?
A. Yes.
Q. How many other of the 73 had four different examiners look at their handwriting?
A. I don't know.
Q. Do you know of any? Can you name one?
A. I'm trying to recall with those three additional examiners if other suspects' historical writings or exemplars were provided to them. As I sit here today, I don't know. But if any, the number would be few.
Q. Do you know whether the Boulder Police Department obtained historical writings with respect to Chris Wolf's handwriting?
A. I don't know. I didn't get very far with Mr. Wolf, Mr. White -- or Mr. Wood, I'm sorry.
Q. That's okay. Fleet White's handwriting was tested?
A. I believe so, yes.
Q. Was he eliminated?
A. He fell into a category that he was no longer, if my understanding is correct, and this wasn't my assignment, but by way of detective briefings, Mr. White was not in the running, if you will, by way of a handwriting exemplar.
Q. My question is not in the running. 4 My question is was he eliminated as the author of the note based on a handwriting analysis conducted by the Boulder Police Department or the CBI?
A. I don't know what the CBI expert concluded as far as a categorical elimination of Mr. White.
Q. John Ramsey was categorically eliminated, wasn't he?
A. Again I would liken it to Mr. White. I simply learned that Mr. Ramsey was not a candidate based on his handwriting.
Q. You don't know whether John Ramsey was eliminated by the examiner at CBI as an author of the note based on that and his -- the analysis of his exemplars, you don't know that as we sit here today?
A. He may very well have fallen into that majority of no evidence to indicate but if you're telling me that he fell into the elimination category, I won't dispute that because we never had any concerns after some of these results that he was the author of the note.
Q. Well, the question is not what I'm 5 suggesting to you. Do you know? Do you have any idea whether his report from CBI came back and said John Ramsey has been eliminated based on the CBI analysis as the author of the ransom note? Do you know one way or the other, sir?
A. As to what category he fell into?
Q. Whether he was eliminated by the CBI analysis is my question, please, sir?
A. As to the category he fell into, including a category of elimination, I don't have personal knowledge.
Q. Do you have any knowledge, secondary or otherwise?
A. As I told you a minute ago, Mr. Wood, it was my understanding from our briefings that he was not a candidate as the author of the note. I don't know what else I can -- how many ways I can answer that question for you.
Q. I just want to know if you know the results of the CBI analysis of John Ramsey's handwriting?
MR. DIAMOND: Any more clearly than he just told you?
MR. WOOD: That's my question. Do you want to answer for him? Because if so --
MR. DIAMOND: I think you --
MR. WOOD: -- I would love to swear you in and examine you under oath, but I think it would be a waste of our time.
MR. DIAMOND: I think you're not listening to the answers. We're not --
MR. WOOD: Why don't you worry about your side of the table and let me worry about mine. If I'm not understanding him, that's my fault. I mean, it's my walk away without the information, right? I think I'm understanding. I'm just not sure I'm getting a straight answer. It seems to me that this gentleman should know, as he claims to be one of the lead detectives on the case, whether John Ramsey's CBI handwriting analysis came back elimination.
Q. (BY MR. WOOD) And you don't know, do you?
A. As I have told you, Mr. Wood, I stand on my answer, yeah, I know that he was not -- that he was eliminated by way of handwriting. But if you're asking me if the CBI examiner reached a conclusion of elimination, I'm sitting here again telling you I don't have personal knowledge of that.
Q. Let me go that route because I think I understand you. Do you know how many of the 73 individuals were eliminated by way of handwriting?
A. By way of falling into the category of elimination.
Q. That were eliminated by way of handwriting, your words.
MR. DIAMOND: I think he means by the Boulder Police Department.
Q. (BY MR. WOOD) I mean that were eliminated by way of handwriting, certainly by the Boulder Police Department. You're the one that says 73?
A. Out of those 73?
Q. Out of those 73, I want to know how many were eliminated by way of handwriting?
A. If you're asking me how many of those 73 fell into the elimination category based on question document examiner 8 conclusions, is that what you're asking me?
Q. I think so.
A. Yeah.
Q. What is the answer?
A. I don't know.
Q. You don't have any idea?
A. No. As I have previously said on the record that number is probably very few. The majority of those, as I have said, fell into the no evidence to indicate category.
Q. Did a lot of them have similarities?
A. Did a lot of who?
Q. A lot of the 73 people, did their -- did their analysis show similarities?
A. I don't know, I'm not a handwriting expert.
Q. Did you review the reports on any of the 73?
A. Have you seen the -- if you've seen the CBI reports, that's not how they're stated in a narrative form like that. No, I never saw anything like that.
Q. Nor does the CBI do handwriting analysis and reach a conclusion, for example, that 24 of 26 letters of the alphabet are similar, they don't do that, do they, sir?
A. Well, according to Detective Sergeant Wickman, he came back and told us that.
Q. But you know that Mr. Ubowski has in fact denied that as being accurate?
A. No, I don't know that.
Q. You didn't see his statement with respect to the fact that he had never concluded anything about Patsy Ramsey in terms of 24 of 26 letters of the alphabet being similar?
A. Well, you can ask --
Q. I'm asking you this question, please.
A. I know and I'm trying to answer it for you.
Q. Please do.
A. Wickman came back from CBI and told that to John Eller and he told that to me and that was Trujillo's account and other detectives were told that.
Q. You didn't hear it from Ubowski?
A. No, I didn't deal with Ubowski.
Q. You didn't see it in writing from Ubowski?
A. No.
Q. After your book came out you weren't aware that Ubowski publicly stated that he had never concluded that Patsy Ramsey was the author of the note and that he had never concluded that 24 of the 26 letters of the alphabet from her writing were similar?
A. Well, you had two questions.
Q. Are you familiar with my question?
MR. DIAMOND: Will you let him answer the question, please?
MR. WOOD: I will. I think I've let him answer every question so far.
MR. DIAMOND: You didn't. You didn't.
MR. WOOD: Well, I'm certainly going to because I want to get his answer to every question. Let's let him do it. I'll restate it.
MR. DIAMOND: I would like the reporter to reread it.
MR. WOOD: I'll withdraw it and restate it.
MR. DIAMOND: All right.
Q. (BY MR. WOOD) After your book came out, sir, were you aware that Mr. Ubowski publicly denied the accuracy of the statement that he concluded Patsy Ramsey wrote the ransom note?
A. No. You're telling me this for the first time.
Q. Are you familiar that Mr. Ubowski stated that he had never reached the conclusion that 24 of her letters out of the 26 letters of the alphabet were matched with the ransom note?
A. No, I have not heard that.
Q. And you stated to the contrary in your book, didn't you?
A. Yeah, I stated what I was told by my detective sergeant.
Q. And you weren't even, I guess, aware that Mr. Ubowski and the CBI said they don't even make that kind of analysis with respect to the 24 out of the 26 letters of the alphabet, you don't know anything about that --
A. No. 2
Q. -- in terms of the public statement by the CBI after your book was published?
A. The CBI made a public statement?
Q. Yes, sir.
A. As an organization, I haven't seen that.
MR. WOOD: I'll show it to you when we come back a little bit later on. Let's take five minutes.
VIDEO TECHNICIAN: The time is 11:06. We're going off the record. This is the end of tape one. (Recess taken from 11:06
A.m. to 11:15 a.m.)
VIDEO TECHNICIAN: The time is 11:15. We're back on the record. This is the beginning of tape two.
Q. (BY MR. WOOD) I think you told me this, but I want to make sure so we don't leave here with any confusion on this point. Do you know whether the DNA of Chris Wolf was ever tested by law enforcement authorities?
A. Once again, no, I don't have 3 personal knowledge of that.
Q. Thank you. Do you have any knowledge, and I'm including not personal but secondhand, but did you ever hear anything about whether his DNA was tested from anyone, doesn't have to be personal knowledge to you, did you ever get it hearsay or otherwise that his DNA had been tested?
A. No, as I sit here right now, Mr. Wood, yeah, I don't have any recollection of any of -- conversation about Mr. Wolf's DNA testing.
Q. And I take it from what you've told me, you would have no idea why Tom Wickman might have contacted Chris Wolf in 1999 asking him at the time that Wolf lived in New Orleans, asking him to come by the Boulder Police Department on his next visit to Boulder; you would have no knowledge about that, would you?
A. What was the time period?
Q. 1999.
A. No. No, of course not.
Q. Was in fact Chris Wolf investigated in any fashion by the Boulder 4 Police Department in connection with the murder of Susannah Chase?
A. I believe so, yes.
Q. Was he a suspect in this case?
A. Courtesy of Jackie Dilson, I believe so.
Q. And was he cleared with respect to the Susannah Chase murder?
A. Again, I believe so.
Q. Do you know why or on what basis he was cleared?
A. No.
Q. Did you ever get any hearsay from any of the detectives about what basis they relied on in clearing Chris Wolf in either the Susannah Chase murder or the JonBenet Ramsey murder?
A. For some reason, and I don't know why this stands out, that Yamaguchi, the detective who led the Chase murder, I believe, I think they had DNA evidence in that case.
Q. How about with the JonBenet Ramsey case, any hearsay as to what he -- the basis upon which he was allegedly cleared?
A. No. If I'm answering the same question, yeah.
Q. Just trying to make sure I've got your answer down. You don't -- you didn't hear from a hearsay standpoint, you didn't get anything from any of the detectives about the basis upon which he was allegedly cleared by the department, right?
A. No, other than relying on Weinheimer's clearance of him.
Q. The statement that he is cleared?
A. Right.
Q. But you don't know why --
A. Right.
Q. -- or any basis, right?
A. That's correct.
Q. Secondhand or otherwise, correct?
A. Yes.
Q. Now, you do know that after the Boulder Police Department had investigated Mr. Wolf, that the district attorney's office was still actively investigating an intruder theory and that Fleet White, Bill McReynolds and Chris Wolf were on the top of their suspect list. You do know that to be true, don't you, sir?
A. Yes.
Q. And that would have been in 1998?
A. As to when the DA's office was conducting this investigation?
Q. Yes.
A. They were doing a lot of things we were entirely unaware of. But if you're telling me they were doing that in 1998, I won't contest it.
Q. Well, what you do know is that the Boulder Police Department investigated Chris Wolf as a suspect and you know that even after the Boulder Police Department had investigated him that the Boulder district attorney's office was still investigating Chris Wolf as a suspect and that he was, along with Fleet White and Bill McReynolds, on the top of the DA's list?
MR. DIAMOND: Just for clarification, after the Boulder Police Department cleared him?
MR. WOOD: Yeah.
A. No, I don't know that time line. Certainly the DA investigators would but there 7 was a period in here where there -- this was not a hand-in- glove fit and there was not a lot of communication being shared.
Q. (BY MR. WOOD) Timing aside, we can get clear agreement that Chris Wolf was from your knowledge not only a suspect for the Boulder Police Department, but at the top of the list, along with McReynolds and Fleet White, of the suspect list of the Boulder district attorney's office in its investigation, true?
A. Certainly seemed to be.
Q. And that was your understanding and knowledge, right?
A. That they were still interested in those parties, yes.
Q. That Mr. Wolf was on the top of their suspect list, along with McReynolds and Fleet White?
A. That was my impression.
Q. And knowledge, I mean not just impression, you knew that as being a fact, didn't you?
A. Yeah, they were still investigating those three individuals.
Q. Now, what was Don Foster's -- did he give a written report to you on Chris Wolf's handwriting?
A. He may have. That would be in the Boulder Police Department.
Q. Did you -- do you recall ever reviewing it?
A. I may or may not have. I know that we took him handwriting of several potential suspects. But no, as I sit here today, I don't recollect Mr. Foster or Dr. Foster's written report on Chris Wolf.
Q. Did Don Foster examine hundreds of writing examples from people ranging from family members to Internet addicts, from neighbors to Chris Wolf to the McReynolds family and a library of books, films and videotapes?
A. Yes.
Q. Do you know what he concluded with respect to each of the individuals that he analyzed?
A. Yeah, that they were not the author of the ransom note.
Q. He eliminated everybody, Don Foster 9 did, didn't he?
A. But one, yes.
Q. Right. In fact Don Foster told you that of all of the hundreds of people of the samples that he had looked at that he had conclusively eliminated everybody and that it was impossible for anyone to have written that note other than Patsy Ramsey; that's what Don Foster told you, right?
A. Those are your words, not his, but I --
Q. Excuse me.
A. If I could finish.
Q. Yeah, you sure can.
A. He stated unequivocally that she was the author of the ransom note.
Q. Do you, again, I'm sorry if I didn't hear you or understand you earlier, you don't know whether any search warrant was ever issued with respect to Chris Wolf, do you, firsthand knowledge or you have none and hearsay otherwise you have not heard of any search warrant?
A. I know Steve Ainsworth was out there, I believe. And there was some discussion regarding that, but I don't know if he was out there by way of a search warrant or not, I would doubt it.
Q. Do you know what was done with the pillow case that Jackie Dilson brought to the Boulder Police Department when you first met with her?
A. Actually, she didn't come to the Boulder Police Department. We met her at a third-party location.
Q. Where was that?
A. The office of her attorney.
Q. Did you all ever ask her to submit to any type of mental health examination?
A. Jackie Dilson?
Q. Yes.
A. Not that I'm aware of.
Q. What was your basis for concluding that she was mentally instable -- unstable?
A. Ten or 11 years of police work in dealing with thousands of people, but beyond that I think the transcript of that exchange and some of what I have earlier mentioned about Third World conspiracies led me to that 1 conclusion.
Q. Do you have any formal training in psychology?
A. No.
Q. Do you have any formal training in psychiatry?
A. No.
Q. Do you have any license to conduct mental health examinations?
A. No.
Q. You told me that you all met at a third party's office but you didn't tell me what I wanted to know and, that is, do you know what was done with the pillow case that Jackie Dilson presented to the Boulder police when you first met with her?
A. If my recollection is accurate, I believe Detective Gosage took custody and maintained that chain on that piece of aforementioned rope. But I do not know whether or not he took the pillow case.
Q. And you don't know firsthand or secondhand, hearsay or otherwise if any testing was ever done on the pillow case, forensic testing; is that right?
A. When you mentioned hearsay or third hand, again, it was my understanding that she delivered to the Boulder County district attorney's office and their investigators a number of items subsequent to our meeting.
Q. I want to go back. I told you I would do it, let's do it now. Look at page 281 of your book, please, the hardback copy. The top of the page, the first actually it starts with "Don Foster from Vassar." Do you see it?
A. Yes.
Q. The first paragraph there under that starts "'In my opinion, it is not possible that any individual except Patsy Ramsey wrote the ransom note.'" Have I read that correctly?
A. Yes.
Q. Earlier we were talking about whose words. Don Foster stated that it was impossible for anyone else to have written the note except Patsy Ramsey, true?
A. This is his statement, yes, sir.
Q. It was not -- and so I was 3 accurate earlier, that he said to you it's impossible that anyone else wrote it?
A. Well, when I asked about your earlier quotation, I don't think you said this verbatim. But --
Q. Fine. But he did tell you it was impossible, didn't he, it was not possible, which is saying to you as a detective, it's impossible that anyone else wrote it according to Don Foster, right?
A. Yes, that was the conclusion that he shared with me, Mr. Wood.
Q. But when you worked with him, and you worked with him a lot, didn't you? You all spent a considerable amount of time discussing this case, didn't you, you and Don Foster?
A. When you say considerable amount of time, you know, no, I didn't spend weeks or days with Don Foster, but he was an outside expert that we used in this case, yes.
Q. At any time did Don Foster, himself, ever disclose to you that he had written a letter to Patsy Ramsey?
A. Yeah, I became aware of that at some point.
Q. After the district attorney's office presented you with the information about Jameson, true?
A. I believe that's correct.
Q. Did Don Foster when you were working with him for whatever period of time you spent with him, when he was giving you his conclusions about the JonBenet Ramsey case and the impossibility that anybody else wrote that note except Patsy Ramsey, did he ever look at you and say, you know, you probably ought to know, though, that I did write a letter to Patsy Ramsey where I told her that I was convinced that she was innocent? He never told you that, did he?
A. We had that conversation at some point.
Q. After he had already been outed by the Boulder DA, true?
A. Possibly.
Q. Do you think you had it before then and didn't disclose it to your police department in the presentation?
A. No, that sounds reasonable.
Q. You would have if you would have known it, you would have told the police department about that in the June presentation, wouldn't you, sir?
A. Right.
Q. Well, actually the presentation with Foster was in March, wasn't it?
A. If we're talking about 1998.
Q. We are.
A. It was the spring of 1998.


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